Thursday, July 17, 2014

3.76. Burying the Leader

"WoW: Lich King"
Artwork by Grampsart

An Inconvenient Truth

Much transpired between the end of July and the launch of Cataclysm in December. The transition event marked the coming of Deathwing, and the land suffered many earthquakes as elementals sprouted forth, calling us to battle. The dedication of many players in the guild continued on into the summer months, returning to raids for gear and achievement acquisition. Players rolled alts, flipped to the Alliance to secure a Lich King kill on the enemy's side, and even returned to older content to wrap up outstanding achievements.

As you probably guessed, I headed off on my annual summer vacation, albeit taking a different route, likewise returning with a different mindset. The 4.0.1 patch eventually made its debut come October, and we settled in to our new talents and abilities. I even returned to BlizzCon that year -- my first time returning since the original "Deckard Cain" visit in '05. A great number of changes happened in the roster as we approached Cataclysm, and...just as I had done near the start of WotLK...I rolled out refinements to our guild rules, closing what I hoped to be the last remaining loopholes left unattended.

These paragraphs could produce a hefty amount of blog posts. And they will, I promise. But those posts belong to a different story, however, one we can't begin until the current story ends. In the meantime, there remains a bit of unfinished business to attend to. For this final part of the story, we'll have to leap ahead to the first week of December 2010, a few days before the launch of the expansion that ends it all.


I rolled the last of my raiding rule updates out to the guild forums that morning, preparing to answer questions as they arrived. I popped Pidgin open, fired off an instant message to Bheer, asking him what he thought of the updates. I expected he would be impressed and thankful; Bheer was in a group of a select few people to hold me accountable several times throughout Wrath, pointing out loopholes that needed to be closed. I remembered his state of mind when my Wrath changes were announced, two years previous. I remember being nervous, predicting the worst. And I remember Bheer being one of the first people to acknowledge the changes as exciting and beneficial for us, sating my fear and providing the validation I needed. He made me believe I was on the right track.

This time, he gave me a different response.

"So, no more guaranteed spots?"

"Negative. The day of the Elite is over. It had a good run, but...I'm concerned about how the title grew into their head, changed their attitudes over time. It changed how they treated people. Privileges became entitlements. That's not quite the direction I intended. Once their spot was 100% secure, they...well, some of them...began to act like they were untouchable."

"I'm not sure the new incentives are gonna be worth it."

Perhaps my wording wasn't entirely clear. "Look, functionally, it is the same thing as it was. If you behave responsibly and are consistent...essentially, the Elite of yore, you'll still have the same spot week-after-week. I've just removed the language about a permanent guarantee." To add clarity to my stance, I framed an example around Bheer himself, "Let's look at your spot. You were in a highly sought-after position. There were no other enhancement shaman. You were a model citizen. You signed up. You showed up. In this framework, you yourself would be present in practically every raid you request."

"But you still have the old rule written in the new Elite rank that they're expected at all raids."

"Absolutely. Again, it's not functionally different than before. The new Elite rank is still going to grant perks, but they're going to be held accountable this time. The same goes for the changes to 1st-round bidding. They're going to have to really think about what they want to burn their first round bids on, because in doing so, they reset their pool. Just additional guardrails in place to prevent people from abusing the loot system. They can still bid 1st's just that now, the price to come to the table is far more significant."

I sat back in my chair, confident I'd clarified the change to Bheer. His response popped up a few moments later.

"Hopefully, that will fix the problem with folks like Eh Team colluding behind your back."

The excitement and energy in talking about my changes to the guild rules instantly came to a halt. At first, I thought I misread it. I tilted my head, squinting, leaning closer to the monitor, and re-reading the words next to his name.


"What do you mean 'colluding'?"

As Bheer's words began to appear in the IM window, a debilitating rage welled up inside me. My teeth clenched as his story unfolded, and the glow of my monitor took on a reddish hue.

Mechanism of Convenience

A cycle repeated as Bheer revealed the grand conspiracy. Part of the story would appear in the IM window, causing my mind to leap back through time like a movie on rewind, trying desperately to pinpoint what happened when, and why I wasn't able to pick up on it. The further back I rewound my memories, the more lost in a trance I was, tightening my fists until my knuckles were white and my fingernails dug in to the skin. Then, I'd snap out of it, re-focus on the story, only to have each successive reveal toss me back into the projector of the mind, the anger blinding me to my own self-mutilation. And I scrambled to isolate the individual pieces. What had I not paid attention to? How had I let this happen? What signs had I missed?

It came about during Ulduar, Bheer claimed. The "initial discussions". They set up a chat channel in-game, protected by a password. Originally, it was to serve as a private bitching area for members of the Eh Team to collectively shit on players they felt were being carried in the 25-Man. Nobody was to share the existence of the channel to anyone in officership. Guild members that were deemed "too close to Hanzo" would also be excluded from this information. Once all of the individual members of the Eh Team acquired a rank of Elite, an alternate looting strategy was floated to the group. As items dropped from bosses, there would be a quick discussion among the group on whether or not the item would be beneficial to Eh Team. If it was, they coordinated their bidding, ensuring that someone locked down the item via a 1st-round bid, denying the item to any potential Raiders that were working towards their own upgrade.

"Were you in on this?"

"I refused to participate, as did Guns. Everyone else had a hand in it."

"Why didn’t you tell me about this before?"

"It was a mechanism of convenience that allowed the Eh Team to flourish, and we were doing well. Really well, actually. I didn't agree with it, but I also didn't want to jeopardize our track record."

I zeroed in on the irony of that statement, "...even though they kicked you to the curb, anyway."

"Well, yes, but that came later. I didn't know they were going to turn on me like that."

I took a deep breath. "Whose idea was it?"

"Crasian was the one who initially started suggesting it. The rest went along with it."

Crasian. The death knight who came and went as he pleased. The player who earned Elite, only to leave to go skiing, who claimed to have thrown a hissy-fit when I chose myself as the first to claim Shadowmourne. The death knight who lost a melee officer promotion to Jungard by a simple lax in judgement. Jungard himself had warned me about Crasian's two sides. There was the popular, guild-friendly face who loved to help fellow members knock out achievements. Behind closed doors, the other face emerged, following his own agenda to establish a steady flow of upgrades to himself, no matter what promises to guildies went unfulfilled. As long as he got his skiing in, that was the most important part.


He would never set foot in this guild again.

The Unusual Suspects

There was nothing I wanted to do less. Staring at the Eh Team's vent channel made me want to just draw a box around all of their names, right-click, and mass ban in one fell swoop. There's your mediation. But I owed it to them to hear them out. I was obligated to consider both sides of the story, to get a clearer picture of what actually went down. It was all part of the job. Kicking out a wife on account of her husband's bad behavior, or removing a stand-up guy from officership because he couldn't cut the mustard were tasks that seemed lightweight upon reflection. Now I was going to have to call people's credibility into question. Was Bheer's story a fabrication? Or had they genuinely lied to my face about their behavior -- Enron-esque loot funds diverted into their own accounts.

One by one, I plucked them out of the channel, dragging their name down into "Officer" for interrogation. The line of questioning was the same for each Eh Team member. I'd like you to take a moment and explain to me your point-of-view of the events that transpired in the private Eh Team chat channel with regards to loot. It should have been enough to convey exactly what I was speaking about, without playing my full hand to the table. They didn't need to know Bheer was the one who revealed the conspiracy; in the absence of that knowledge, I felt they'd give me a more accurate story.

In some cases, they really played dumb. When I fished the answers out of them, you would've thought they had just joined the guild yesterday -- manufactured shock and surprise to mollify me. They all told me something different, speaking as though they were an outside observer to something they had all been privy to. It only fueled my rage further.

Gunsmokeco: "That was going on? Really? I guess I wasn't paying attention to it."

Just like you weren't paying attention to your addons that I specifically required all players and officers to have configured for the 25-Man? At what point did you feel like you wanted to start paying attention?

Larada: "Had no idea anything was going on like that. I definitely wasn't doing it, though."

The ignorance defense seems to work incredibly well. I wonder how that works in the real world.

Sixfold: "I knew that they were trying to find a way to keep things in the inner circle, but it...I felt unfair. I wasn't happy about them doing it. I didn't really like the idea."

...and yet you didn't feel the need to bring it to my attention, that perhaps maybe this was going against the rules.

Bulwinkul: "I dunno why I didn't say anything, but I'm not proud of it. It started as a way to vent frustrations at some of the other players who weren't contributing as much as we were."

Except that you don't get to decide what level of contribution is rewarded in this guild...I do.

Omaric: "Crasian got a little loot hungry, sure, but I wouldn't call it 'collusion'. They were just trying to work out what the most efficient path was for a certain set of upgrades."

And working together to decide who bids on what and when, under the guise of 'efficiency', you wouldn't call that collusion, eh?

Bretthew: "This is an absolute lie. Who told you this? I mean, this really pisses me off, Hanzo, I really really want to know who it was that gave you this info, because it is totally false and unfair. God, this makes me angry! The stuff that we chatted about in that channel was not collusion. Totally not collusion. The kinds of things we talked about regarding loot were no different than anything that was talked about in the officer chat. Officers did exactly the same things as we did, and nothing more. I'm offended, Hanzo."

So, what you're saying is that when I type "Please let it be heroic Deathbringer's Will" in officer chat, that's the same as you typing, "Anyone here need Voldrethar? Should we snatch it up?" Thanks for clarifying that for me.

One thing they all agreed on: when questioned on who the ringleader was, no individual member ever stepped up to take responsibility. Crasian certainly took the brunt of the bus' tire treads when it came time to place the blame on someone for the idea itself...but allowing the idea to take root and flourish fell squarely on the shoulders of the Eh Team's leader.  Yet in a stroke of either convenience, genius, oversight, or simple dumb luck, nobody in Eh Team claimed to be the one calling the shots! The one thing they all believed to be true was that they made decisions together -- a democracy of misfits and anarchists whose plausible deniability absolved them of any accountability.

What they didn't realize, however, was that there was someone who was responsible. Someone who had long since taken their leave from World of Warcraft. Someone whose ideals weren't quite aligned with my own -- especially when it came to loot. Someone who had the means to let their belief system justify a new world order of their own. Someone who had an obligation to the guild to report bad behavior and greed, rather than allow it to flourish.

Someone who really should have known better than all these bit players in the Eh Team show.

Someone that I trusted.


Amy said...

Oh, you and your cliff hangers. Still enjoying the series!

Aedilhild said...

And all of this on the eve of an expansion giving a team-within-a-team the perfect opportunity for splitting off to enjoy the same rewards and recognition?

I mean, I know history and I knew the arc of your story. But now I'm realizing how many guilds died suddenly and violently; yet to Blizzard, silently.

Shawn Holmes said...


Hopefully some more folks like yourself will get to read it and understand how truly detrimental Blizzard's decision was.

Anonymous said...

Well God damn, you finally stopped Cliff hanger'ing!

I mean, yeah, it still technically has a cliff hanger, but now we finally know what all those veiled references were too.

And those where what was driving me nuts. XD

All aboard the Guild drama train, CHOO CHOO!

-Catelina, KT Alliance Holy Priest

Anonymous said...

Also, btw, I'd like to point out how much it took/cost Bheer to come out with that.

I don't know obviously, but, he'd likely been wanting to mention something, and as a result of the expansion ending, and his own guilt/discomfort and you're prompting of a tangentially related topic...

It was enough for him to finally broach it.

Him and Guns (Who lied about it), I can get the "Don't want to be involved, don't want to cause Guild Drama." thing.

Not the best decision, but I get it. Who wants to choose between friends? Who wants to rock the boat?

-Catelina again

Dalans said...

Catelina just got Keyser Soze'd...

Anonymous said...

I still need to go watch that movie some day.


Fredrick said...

I thought Bulwinkul had been removed from guild at this point? Did I miss something?

Shawn Holmes said...


Keen eye. He was out, but our Vent server was always open to the public...which meant he was still able to hang with the gang, if he chose.

Fredrick said...

That solves the mystery..I thought you were talking to each member privately :)

To important matters then:
Wintergrasp NAO? Also, connected to these last posts?

Tyler Iacono said...

It should also be mentioned that members of the Eh Team came ready to roll every raid day. It's not like any of those upgrades were wasted. ;D

That said, there wasn't much room for collusion anyway. Not many members of the Eh Team used the same items. The biggest thing would have been vanquished tokens, but they were a hit commodity anyway and always went for a high price.


Anonymous said...

I don't miss that asshole one bit... ; )


Littlebear said...

Its interesting that this all happened just before I showed up, yet never heard a whiff of it until today.


Shawn Holmes said...


The Wintergrasp story is coming up, in the first bit of Part IV, when I begin "Operation: Water Under The Bridge".

Shawn Holmes said...


Re: Missing the "asshole".

Keep your eye on him in Part IV. Story's not over yet.

Dalans said...

@Omaric: So if there is only a little bit of room for collusion then it is ok? That's cool, you were only doing it for cross class items and tokens which had lots of competition anyways so trying to stack the deck on those things is fine.


Joredin said...

Guessing the person in the cliffhanger is Billy. Well written Shawn, you definitely have a way with words that keep you interested and wanting to read more.

Glad some of these things are finally making the light of day.

Tyler Iacono said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tyler Iacono said...


I'm saying these things which had lots of competition I couldn't collude on anyway. Which means it was pointless for me. Most of the elites paid high prices for the things I went for, so my benefit wasn't that high.

Sure, looking back it's completely unfair, but at the same time the Eh Team contributed quite a bit to the overall progression of the guild 25 man raid. The gear attained, (which is most likely blown out of perspective anyway) only went to help the guild progression.

Your constructive passive aggressiveness hasn't changed though, that's refreshing.

Dalans said...

Since Eh Team contributed so much to 25man progression you didn't think it would be a problem getting an advantage on loot...kind of like 1st round bidding that Elites already had?


You want constructive criticism only? Why, if you had an issue with the loot rules and thought there needed to be a change, didn't you bring it up? You were an officer and raid leader, just voice your opinion.

Oh, because asking for more items/better chances to loot on top of what was already offered would seem greedy and entitled and you knew no other officers would agree to that so you made your own rules.


Tyler Iacono said...


I didn't have an issue with the loot rules. I don't understand why you're so upset. I was a different person back then. I'm not going to defend the actions of an ego driven, stars in his eyes dude.

What I can do is tell my part, which is that no matter what happened, the loot was in good hands and went to help the guild. This makes it sound like we got all the loot, which wasn't the case. Again, being blown out of perspective.

If it's not safe to come in and voice opinions years after this has gone done, please let me know. I'd prefer not to get flamed whenever my viewpoint differs from the blog.

Tyler Iacono said...

Gone down*

Why can't we edit these comments? Blarg.

Crasian/Cam said...

I would just like to comment...that that by the time we were doing Ulduar Hardmodes I was decked out in TOC "HEROIC" gear. I didn't need anything from Ulduar HM's or normals.

I was merely at this point interested in going for the achievements to wrap up our drakes.

As for the comments that were made from do I wish I had screenshot some of my conversations with that guy. He had asked me during a HM Vezax pull that if the sword were to drop if I could pass on it to him. This is all done in whispers. I don't see how this is any different than having a channel and expressing to others that "I will be bidding on this item" Most of which were Strength items specific to me and if you looked at the roster of the Eh team. Only Taba and Omaric were Strength users whom were both tanks.

I helped this guild out quite a bit back in Wrath for the enjoyment of the game and as well as to help other players...

Be weary of where your obtain your information...I don't want to ruin any spoilers

Dalans said...

Like your compatriot previously, you are confusing my initial sarcasm and inquisitiveness for "being upset." I'm just trying to satisfy my own curiosity as to the reason why, which would have the additional benefit of adding to the story and informing the readers.

If you don't want to "defend your actions" then there's no need to respond. You don't owe me or anyone else an explanation and I'm not saying that you do. No one is being insulted or "flamed" for posting their opinion. Your viewpoint differs from the blog and my viewpoint differs from yours, this is a discussion on why that is.

Granted my first response was a tad snarky but no more insulting than the inference that it is ok to break the rules or collude with others because you were players with great skill or you came more prepared than others, or that if an item had gone to some player other than a member of Eh Team it might have been wasted whereas with you guys it definitely wouldn't be.

This is a completely separate discussion than anything DKP related, I'm not suggesting that items were wasted and I don't think the blog post reads that way either.

This is about setting up a password protected channel in order to coordinate with others about how best to circumvent the rules in order to give yourselves an advantage to loot. You say that there wasn't much benefit so that still made it ok? I'll agree with you that it didn't guarantee success of getting what you wanted and no, it didn't make sure that every wanted item that dropped went to an Eh Team member. However, since DKP was public and everyone's gear was public it would be very easy to work with those who had larger amounts of DKP to ensure that someone paid the maximum amount ensuring your place in the queue for one or multiple items was bumped up the list.

You said it yourself, Eh Team members contributed greatly so they would be in a good position to pull this question is, if you had no problem with the loot system, Why?

Tyler Iacono said...

The channel wasn't created for loot. The channel was created because we were a clique within DoD. It happens everywhere. When you have a separate channel you can change the color of the text so that your friends pop out easier. I think you'll agree that talking about people without their knowledge happened quite a bit in O chat. No different with us.

There's really not a lot to explain. We were friends and we had a private channel to BS in. It just so happened that occasionally we discussed loot too, like everyone did in one form or another, as Crasian has pointed out.

But yeah, if you want an actual discussion try not to convey your questions as sarcasm, or you won't be taken seriously. I'm happy to answer questions if it's going to be civil. I had no intent of insulting anyone through my comment. This all happened quite a while ago and most people have let go of their hard feelings, which is saying something if you think about what eventually happened to me. :P

Tyler Iacono said...

Oh and to answer your last question, most likely greed. The system was working for us so there was no need to bring anything up. That said, the system was working for everyone. Can you recall anyone who was hopelessly shafted?

Tyler Henderson said...

It's important to remember that this story is told from the perspective Shawn had at the time. This story is likely to have more surprises.

- guns (not a liar)

Dalans said...

> Can you recall anyone who was hopelessly shafted?

I'd like to answer your question but that would be impossible considering that Eh Team undermining the loot rules was kept secret. How would I know who did or didn't get screwed?

Tyler Iacono said...

The world may never know. But, if you can't recall any complaints from another raider about never getting loot, then perhaps it wasn't such an issue.

Anonymous said...

A long time ago people wandered about in an ocean of molecules with no clue that they were there... snuggling against them in the darkest dark of deepest night.

Doesn't mean that just because people were unaware of the hidden caresses that these unsavory chemical moments weren't happening.

So let's be real: just because you cannot see something doesn't mean it wasn't there all along.

Becoming an adult: taking responsibility for actions without logic pretzels designs to assuage one of guilt and consequences associated with said actions.

Anonymous said...

It was an open secret that Uliz/Crasian was a very loot-oriented player, much as Divineseal was derogatorily nicknamed 'Divinepants', and many more before and after them. The primary difference is in their performance as combat participants... in that while Crasian's loot obsession made him a nuisance on Ventrilo and other communication platforms, he could also be counted on to perform well, especially if he stood a chance to gain something from the raid/instance. He's certainly not innocent, but he hardly the alone.

Dalans said...

@Omaric: So your position is that it is okay to take advantage of people as long as they don't complain about it?

Tyler Iacono said...


Is that what I said? I'm saying if we were even taking advantage of the system at all, it didn't show. So, perhaps we didn't take advantage of the system. That said, if we truly hurt any fun for people I'm very sorry to anyone that still feels that way. It wasn't fair and the guild didn't deserve it. Still though, I don't recall screwing people very hard, if at all.

I didn't see any replies to my other retorts though, so you must just be picking at anything you can, which seems to be your preferred method of conversation. Let me know when you're done making villains out of people.

Matt Morrison said...


Nice to see ya on here. Looks like you were an integral part of the guild and it's nice to put a person to the story :)

I think the point of all of this is that, while I understand the inclination to defend ones actions. Sometimes we get into a place we never meant to be and it's normally through small, less offensive or not offensive at all, steps.

The thing is though, the amount of people put out by this doesn't matter, the severity of how much they were put out doesn't matter either. The action was an incorrect one. The Eh Team put themselves ahead of the guild and that's was a selfish and incorrect thing to do. They valued themselves higher than the guild and their actions implied that the guild should do the same.

We all make mistakes, obviously you have grown up and as you said you aren't the person you used to be. It's great to learn from our mistakes because we take something good from something bad.

IMHO though, the argument of who was put out or how badly is invalid and doesn't change one thing about what happened.

Look forward to further updates. WoW meant a lot to a lot of people and all good things must come to an end, obviously the end is upon us and I am just as sad to read about it as to know that it will signal the end of this fantastic blog as well.

Tyler Iacono said...

Hey there Matt!

Nice read. Fully agree with what you're saying. My reasoning for the posts on this story are mostly to clear up our reasoning at the time it was happening, rather than to defend my actions in the now.

I'm definitely guilty of asking people what loot they were interested in. I agree that the Eh Team put themselves in front of the guild as a whole AT TIMES, but we always wore our guild tag proudly. We had a lot of fantastic people and the guild structure was amazing. Easily the best guild I was a part of.

Dalans said...

@Omaric: Usually I get called out for analyzing every word of every sentence from someone's response as it comes across as insulting. Since you were already sensitive about my earlier sarcasm I figured I would stick to answering your questions which is what you requested. But if you like...

You created a channel for your group, I'll buy that. Arguing whether or not it was password protected is moot. You kept the "loot discussion" to yourselves because it was wrong and you knew it; otherwise there wouldn't have been an issue with just discussing it in raid chat or in Vent. Having the reason for creating the channel so that you could change text colors is laughable. The default chat UI allowed for this and there was a myriad of chat addons that would allow for limitless customization.

No doubt things were said about people without their knowledge in Officer chat, and I'll be the first to admit that, hell I probably perpetrated a good 60% of it; what's your point? Having a chat channel to yourselves to talk shit was never at issue.

Having direct quotes from Cheese about the origin of the channel and admission from multiple people that it occurred, along with a reasoning behind it from you (pure and simple greed) doesn't really give me much to do in the villain construction department.

>Is that what I said?

>if you can't recall any complaints from another raider about never getting loot, then perhaps it wasn't such an issue
I'm trying to think of this in a different light and it really doesn't read in any other fashion other than: "if we were cheating and no one complained then then cheating was ok"

>I'm saying if we were even taking advantage of the system at all
You were.

>it didn't show. So, perhaps we didn't take advantage of the system.
Maybe I can explain this in a different way: If you are running an experiment with no variables, and your lab partner throws in a chemical you don't know about, how are you going to determine that the results you got are actually false?

You were gaming the system without anyone else knowing it was occurring. How would the other raiders know that they were getting scammed on loot if they thought the system was working according to the rules that had already been laid out and not according to a group of individuals working the rules? Does that make sense to you?

Tyler Iacono said...

Oy, you sir are exhausting. I'm pretty sure I've already laid out the reasoning for everything you're criticizing.

You got me though Dalans, I totally enjoy taking advantage of people as long as they don't find out. It's one of my greatest joys in life. I'm right under Hitler at the moment, but dammit, I'm trying!


"Does that make sense to you?"

No. :(

In before, "Ah, it seems that after you've already apologized for doing something wrong that I have in fact called you out. I win this conversation and hopefully all future conversations, bwahahaha!"

Jungard said...

Just want to add to Crasian's point about whispering over loots such as a Vezax weapon. At that point, I recall it being mostly "Is this an upgrade for you?" and basically wondering what my competition was for a given item. From that time and going into ToC is when I noticed this being a pattern of trying to wheel and deal for loot.

In some cases, I noticed him offering to pass on an item I didn't think he needed in exchange for something he did need. That's when I really noticed that it was a problem and stopped playing his game.

Brett Easley said...

Okay so, take it from the people who were in the channel, not people on the outside looking in, on what actually happened in the channel. I still stand by that we never did any type of "colluding". We definitely talked about what gear would be an upgrade, and what we'd love to see drop. Never anything along the lines of "Hey, that's a bigger upgrade for you, I'm going to not bid" or "Hey I'll bid high on this since we know he can bid a lot." The reason any of us ever said anything happened involving collusion, was because we were colluding in the way that any other person does. We were talking about the game and what and wasn't upgrades and what we were hoping to drop.

Brett Easley said...


For what it's worth, you weren't there for any of this and only are accepting one side of the story as truth. You are ignorant in this situation to a very fair degree, yet are making huge leaps as to what you know is true. Trust me, the so called "colluding" is nothing you yourself would do when you knew a boss dropped an item you wanted. You have the DKP? Someone mentions how it would be sweet if that item dropped? You slam in it their face with "Yeah too bad I have the most DKP! Ha HA!" I mean, there's nothing wrong with saying that. It's just truth.

Anonymous said...

Third party perspective here.

Tyler Ianoco has basically admitted the collusion / cheating point, so little sense in denying it.*

Tyler, it sounds like you should just admit it was wrong and say you're sorry, full stop. You say you're admitting it, you're moving on and getting over it, and everyone else should too - then you contradict all that by generating weak excuses why maybe it wasn't so bad.

No one complained? Goodness. Maybe they were being mature and classy - you know, not whining. And didn't know they were being cheated.

The thing about games like WOW is that everyone playing them has a part in making them good or bad, fun or not fun. It sounds like you were part of something really special, and you took it for granted and mistreated it. You say DoD was the best guild you were ever in without acknowledging that your actions undermined it.

All this said, at least you sort of admit the wrongdoing. That beats the total deniers.

*I get that different people can have different genuine experiences of the same event. So maybe to some people in the chat there really didn't seem to be any cheating. It seems unlikely that there would be dramatically different perspectives among a cohesive, consistent group of people if that describes the chat group. I wasn't there so I don't know what it was like.

Anonymous said...

What a cliff-hanger... I want to know what happens! Also on a lighter note, where was my invite to this channel :(!

-Art the blind healer

Tyler Iacono said...


My name is pretty clearly typed next to each post, but I shall forgive this once! :)

Also, if you read through what I wrote, you'll find an apology has already in fact been stated.

Yet, what everyone is still seeing conveyed is that we created a channel with the sole intention of distributing loot maliciously amongst ourselves, which is very false.

It was a channel created to discuss everything Eh Team, but also to BS around without crowding vent or raid chat during raid.

Looking back at the comments here, I admit that I came up with some weak excuses. I forgot how best to deal with Dalans, which is to remove the side of snark and pretend it didn't happen. I can see where he is coming from and I didn't mean to imply that I have no care for rules (sorry Dalans). At that time of course, either a blind eye was turned or we were ignorant to the negatives of discussing loot in one form or another. There is no doubt we were guilty of that, but Brett *is* correct in that we weren't colluding to screw people and make them spend a ridiculous amount of DKP on a certain item. It was mostly to more efficiently use our own DKP and not step on each others' toes to benefit Eh Team. Obviously, this is wrong as well.

I suppose my heated comments stem more from the fact that we weren't the only people participating, yet we are the ones thrown under the bus for it. That's fine of course and it makes for a good story, but the comment sections here are available to add more perspective.

Not, in fact, to defend any malpractice that occurred to absolve myself in the now. I discussed pieces of loot I needed during that period of time as I pointed out above and that isn't something I can take back. I was mostly trying to be silly with my initial comment (which is my nature), but was caught off guard when Dalans countered with sarcasm and perceived anger.

It's just interesting to me after all these years, after having come to terms with Shawn on the ensuing shit-storm to come (and even discussing the events at the Denver airport with him), that I feel I need to mend things with people I'm unfamiliar. That isn't on any of you and I fully understand why each of you want to participate and I'm honestly glad you are. It's amazing to see so much interest in DoD. I suppose I could remain silent, but it's more fun to participate in such a memorable time.

There's also no need to question that this was my favorite guild. I suppose I took it for granted in one way or another, but who hasn't done so for something during their time spent on Earth? Believe it or not, Shawn was a frustrating son of bitch to deal with sometimes as well. ;) One of my favorite lines of his towards me was during a Freya attempt where he said, "LISTEN HERE, FUCKFACE!". Getting Shawn to these emotional points can be a challenge and is definitely enjoyed by everyone! I spent the most time in my WoW career with them and met them numerous times in RL. The main reason I'm responding so much to this post specifically is that it paints our team in a much poorer picture than I believe to be reality. This is because it's from Shawn's point of view at the time. I'm adding additional perspective, which I thought may be helpful to the readers.

I hope that clears things up, and I apologize to everyone for coming off combative. Dalans has that effect on some people, including myself. If only you could all read our old forums. ;D

Hallie Henderson said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Hallie Henderson said...

Oh and fred still sucks
Love ya brett,ikey,and yea u too cam

Fred said...

Oh Pimmy. The ensuing shit storm. God, Cata. Fuck Cata. The end.

Jungard said...

I love you, Tyler.

Matt Morrison said...


Well said and good on you for setting the record straight.

The only way we make up for mistakes is by owning up, learning and growing.

Sounds like you did all three.

It's been a pleasure chatting.